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Rank: Student Body President  Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 2,900
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Qq wrote:Jeez, this fool keeps comparing human life to animals
You sound like a person who would give their own life to save a cat being hit by a car Me? Because I would never give my life to save some cat. NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rank: Student Body President
Joined: 12/22/2010 Posts: 1,330
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I don't see this as an abstract moral dilemma at all. Personally, I can't associate with a raised food animal, so I'm not bothered by eating one. If you told me that the food I was eating was my beloved pet dog, I'd instantly be sickened and saddened. But, that's not the case, and I simply don't care that I'm eating part of a cow when enjoying a tasty steak that provides me with several essential nutrients. There's nothing more to this argument than that. BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology, UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy, University of Alberta '13 - Drop out as of '11 University Certificate in Finance, Athabasca University '12 Petroleum Engineering Technology diploma, NAIT '13
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Rank: Frosh
Joined: 1/11/2011 Posts: 2
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Quote:Now, how can you kill humanely exactly? Feeding the animals nutritious food and allowing them to live on a nice farm does not take away from the fact that you're still killing them for selfish benefit. Imagine if the Nazis had let the Jews live extravagantly in nice mansions and fed them the most delicious food, would that make what they did humane? It is still institutional killing, no matter how nicely you treated the victim. Nicely said. K. Reed
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Rank: Student Council  Joined: 1/9/2011 Posts: 470
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Really, there isn't a right or a wrong here (in a moral sense)... And so what if humans are more intelligent than animals? Animals can feel pain too. Why should we care for the suffering of other animals? There isn't an objective answer. Some people care; some people don't. I don't think it helps to shove personal preferences down other people's throats. However, I have nothing against the providing of information to people who are ignorant of whatever. They may change their views once better informed... What bugs me is how some people seem to be making up facts. Vegetarians can't be healthy? Come on. Obviously an assumption that was probably made without actual research. Waterloo - Computer Science (co-op) 2017
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Rank: Frosh
Joined: 1/11/2011 Posts: 1
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There are a lot of comments posted on this forum that aren't based on any research at all! If you're looking for a moral argument, try reading Alastair Norcross's "Puppies, Pigs and People" and Carl Cohen's "A Critique of the Alleged Moral Basis of Vegetarianism." If you're looking for personal reasons to become a vegetarian, Peta has some good articles about the negative effects of eating animals. I hope that helps.
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Rank: Valedictorian  Joined: 12/21/2010 Posts: 549
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I'm really busy at the moment, so I don't have time to respond to as many people as I'd like, but this caught my attention: Stranger wrote:Why should we care for the suffering of other animals? Why do you care about the suffering of other humans, but not animals? What defining characteristics place animals less than humans? mynameismattgotmlgo wrote:I don't see this as an abstract moral dilemma at all. Personally, I can't associate with a raised food animal, so I'm not bothered by eating one. If you told me that the food I was eating was my beloved pet dog, I'd instantly be sickened and saddened. But, that's not the case, and I simply don't care that I'm eating part of a cow when enjoying a tasty steak that provides me with several essential nutrients.
There's nothing more to this argument than that. What argument? Seems more like ignorance to me... Schulich School of Business York University
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Rank: Student Body President
Joined: 12/22/2010 Posts: 1,330
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IanSharer wrote:Why do you care about the suffering of other humans, but not animals? Well, he or she is human; therefore, he or she is biased towards his or her own kind. It's natural (now, I'll say this preemptively because I know how much you love to twist around words: natural =/= right) to tend for one's own. Our ancestors would likely have not survived if they valued the life of a tasty, meaty boar as much as they for the lives of their children. BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology, UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy, University of Alberta '13 - Drop out as of '11 University Certificate in Finance, Athabasca University '12 Petroleum Engineering Technology diploma, NAIT '13
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Rank: Valedictorian  Joined: 12/21/2010 Posts: 549
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mynameismattgotmlgo wrote:IanSharer wrote:Why do you care about the suffering of other humans, but not animals? Well, he or she is human; therefore, he or she is biased towards his or her own kind. It's natural (now, I'll say this preemptively because I know how much you love to twist around words: natural =/= right) to tend for one's own. Is it acceptable for an animal to kill a human? mynameismattgotmlgo wrote:Our ancestors would likely have not survived if they valued the life of a tasty, meaty boar as much as they for the lives of their children. Whether or not that's true, it doesn't mean we should base our morals on the past. We can survive while placing value on animals, so I see no reason not to. Schulich School of Business York University
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Rank: Valedictorian
Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 597
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Qq wrote:ARMY101 wrote:Qq wrote:Jeez, this fool keeps comparing human life to animals
You sound like a person who would give their own life to save a cat being hit by a car You realize that humans ARE animals, right? Humans do a lot of weird things in comparison to our close animal counterparts. It's not unfair to question why we don't do things when they're so prevalent in the animal kingdom. Yes, but we posses sophisticated intelligence where as they do not. The point I was trying to make is this person is comparing our lives to that of cows, pigs, lamb, chicken, and any other animals that humans eat It's just foolish to use that in an argument/debate Ah, so our sophisticated intelligence gives us the right to kill animals. Why stop there? I consider myself more intelligent than many people, so hey, I should kill them. In fact, other great apes share human baby intelligence. You know what that means? We should kill babies by your logic, too! What infallible rhetoric you produced there. And don't say we don't eat other apes because for one, some humans have/do, and two, it would be an arbitrary line to draw that would just be done for the purposes of your argument. I said multiple times that I'm for assuming that human life is more important than anything else. I also said that I like the idea, and that I benefit from it. My sole point in this whole thread has just been to say that we no reason to believe that our lives are superior to anything else, or that I have not seen a convincing argument in favour of that assumption.
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Rank: Frosh
Joined: 1/5/2011 Posts: 3
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I used to be in the same boat as you too.
My family eats a lot of meat so I was just comfortable and used to it, but when thinking about it, I really didn't like knowing what happened for me to have that piece of steak.
Then a few years ago, I visited family and my aunt and uncle are vegans... they showed me some PETA videos that really opened me up to what's actually going on in those factory farms.. not just the regular farm you think of where the animals live good lives and are killed quickly, but where they're tortured to death. I felt terrible watching it and didn't think their suffering was worth a tasty meal.
That's just my personal opinions on it! My family's a pretty big meat family... I myself am vegetarian but it's a persons choice.
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Rank: Student Body President  Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 1,572
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IanSharer wrote:Why do you care about the suffering of other humans, but not animals? What defining characteristics place animals less than humans? Because we recognize that other humans - our own kind - have an intrinsic value and worth in our knowledge and power that is not matched by animals.
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Rank: Student Body President  Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 1,572
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IanSharer wrote:Is it acceptable for an animal to kill a human? Yes. Animals have only their primal instincts and usually only kill humans if they're starving or feel that the human is threatening their child. Animals don't have the knowledge to consider what is a threat to them and what is not, so we can hardly blame animals for killing humans.
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Rank: Student Body President
Joined: 12/22/2010 Posts: 1,330
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IanSharer wrote:Is it acceptable for an animal to kill a human?
Whether or not that's true, it doesn't mean we should base our morals on the past. We can survive while placing value on animals, so I see no reason not to. 1) Irrelevant question. If my answer is yes, then that would mean it would also make sense for me to believe that is acceptable for a human to kill a non-human animal. If my answer is no, then there's really no suggestion as to where I stand. My stance in that case would depend on how much I value human life relative to non-human animal life. 2) How come I knew you were going to say something along those lines? What's really pathetic is that I even said that because something is innate to humans doesn't mean that that thing is morally acceptable. You asked why do people not care about the suffering of animals, not why people don't find it immoral to kill animals. Caring is mostly emotional and, therefore, if you ask me why I don't care about something, I don't need to provide a rational answer. I don't find it rational to kill a chicken to provide me with a tasty meal, but I care much more for a tasty meal than for the life of a chicken that I've never seen alive, so it doesn't bother me when I eat chicken. I'd say that is the case for most people. BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology, UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy, University of Alberta '13 - Drop out as of '11 University Certificate in Finance, Athabasca University '12 Petroleum Engineering Technology diploma, NAIT '13
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Rank: Student Body President  Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 2,900
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Humans would eat other humans if their survival depended on it. But it doesn't so they don't. If you were dying, would you cut your arm off and eat it?
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Rank: Valedictorian
Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 597
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My post was deleted, so I'll explain my previous post again.
I was being quite polemical, so here's a nicer way of putting it. Qq argued that we don't even need to ask the question, because we can't compare humans to other animals in the first place. ARMY101 pointed out that humans are animals, and so that argument went down the drain. Qq responded that that was true, but our greater intelligence gives us the right to kill other animals. Here's his argument and why I feel it is not one we want to adopt.
1. We have the right to kill animals less intelligent than the average human adult (you cannot just say "We have the right to kill animals", because we are animals too. If you say "the right to kill other, non-human animals," then you are assuming what I've said people are this whole time, that we believe our lives to take precedence in all ethical questions).
2. Farm animals are less intelligent than the average human adult.
3. Therefore, we have the right to kill farm animals.
My problem is with point 1. The arguments that could be drawn out are against our morals. For example, since point 1 includes humans (as we are animals too), you cannot separate humans from the consequences point 1 leads to. One consequence is that any human less intelligent than the average human adult can be killed. It also allows that human babies be killed, for they are not as intelligent as the average adult human. I say average adult human because there is no universal level of human intelligence; some are clever, some aren't, and some are somewhat.
But I can already hear people saying, "Yes, but you just can't compare humans to other animals" or, "True, though we need to eat these animals to survive." Both these responses assume their is something intrinsically better about being human, and the second is also flawed since, as others have pointed out, a vegetarian lifestyle is feasible.
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Rank: Student Body President  Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 1,572
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teiganmck wrote:Then a few years ago, I visited family and my aunt and uncle are vegans... they showed me some PETA videos that really opened me up to what's actually going on in those factory farms.. not just the regular farm you think of where the animals live good lives and are killed quickly, but where they're tortured to death. I felt terrible watching it and didn't think their suffering was worth a tasty meal.
That's just my personal opinions on it! My family's a pretty big meat family... I myself am vegetarian but it's a persons choice. 1. Those farms are incredibly uncommon. I could also find *one* farm in all of Canada that feeds cows parts of other cows. That doesn't mean all farms should be painted with the same brush. 2. Those farms were not used by any of the big, accountable, reputable corporations, and if they were, the corporation severely fined the farm or stopped using them all together. 3. Those farms acted against government policy and company policy. 4. Those farms were sometimes operated properly, but just a few bad staff members chose to breaks the rules on their shift. 5. Some people just have a bad day and they want to stomp some chickens. What's wrong with that?
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Rank: Student Body President  Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 2,900
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ARMY101 wrote:teiganmck wrote:Then a few years ago, I visited family and my aunt and uncle are vegans... they showed me some PETA videos that really opened me up to what's actually going on in those factory farms.. not just the regular farm you think of where the animals live good lives and are killed quickly, but where they're tortured to death. I felt terrible watching it and didn't think their suffering was worth a tasty meal.
That's just my personal opinions on it! My family's a pretty big meat family... I myself am vegetarian but it's a persons choice. 1. Those farms are incredibly uncommon. I could also find *one* farm in all of Canada that feeds cows parts of other cows. That doesn't mean all farms should be painted with the same brush. 2. Those farms were not used by any of the big, accountable, reputable corporations, and if they were, the corporation severely fined the farm or stopped using them all together. 3. Those farms acted against government policy and company policy. 4. Those farms were sometimes operated properly, but just a few bad staff members chose to breaks the rules on their shift. 5. Some people just have a bad day and they want to stomp some chickens. What's wrong with that? Yes, this is not the case at the majority of farms, at least from what I have seen and heard. And chickens aren't stomped, they are kicked.
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Rank: Frosh
Joined: 1/13/2011 Posts: 2
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mynameismattgotmlgo wrote:[quote=IanSharer]Why do you care about the suffering of other humans, but not animals? WOW, any living creature deserves respect. Having nerve endings, and also a BRAIN, allows emotions and feelings to take place in that (human or animal's) body. It is cruel and unfair to have no sympathy towards anything that is suffering.
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Rank: Student Body President  Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 1,572
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Tasnia wrote:WOW, any living creature deserves respect. Having nerve endings, and also a BRAIN, allows emotions and feelings to take place in that (human or animal's) body. It is cruel and unfair to have no sympathy towards anything that is suffering. Really? So we could feel sad when we cut the grass? When a tree is cut down? When a flower is picked and given to someone as a gift? Give me a break!
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Rank: Student Body Vice-President  Joined: 11/28/2010 Posts: 820
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ARMY101 wrote:Tasnia wrote:WOW, any living creature deserves respect. Having nerve endings, and also a BRAIN, allows emotions and feelings to take place in that (human or animal's) body. It is cruel and unfair to have no sympathy towards anything that is suffering. Really? So we could feel sad when we cut the grass? When a tree is cut down? When a flower is picked and given to someone as a gift? Give me a break! Plants are not creatures, nor do they have nerve endings or brains. Learn to read. University of Toronto (Trinity College) Honours Bachelor of Arts, Majors in English and Psychology, 2013ish
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