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Rank: Student Council  Joined: 12/25/2010 Posts: 365
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North wrote:brady23 wrote:Yeah, I know, but these students didn't think they would get 90s in English, but they weren't expecting it to be below 80 and there's only 2-3 students who got over 80 out of 30 students and compared to other classes, that's a very low percentage. It just sucks for them that they might get screwed. Here's the issue I see, student's are expecting to get a certain mark. Overall, high school marks are being inflated. Ministry of education standards are a level 3 (i.e. some sort of 70%). This means that most students shouldn't be getting 80s. Also, your top 6 average is made up of just that - 6 courses. Unless the other 5 courses are 100, then you can improve those courses to bring your average up. It's never just one mark or one teacher. English isn't easy for most student for a reason. It forces you develop and use critical thinking skills and then effectively communicate your thoughts. That's not easy, and it isn't meant to be. However, these are important skills for every discipline. That's why it's a required course for every university. Yeah, ministry of education standards are a level 3, the average for every other english class except their english class which is a level 2. And quite frankly, it's hard enough to get 90+ in every other course, getting 100s in them seems a bit far fetched. And just because the average is level 3 doesn't mean that only 2 students out of 30 can only get a level 4, I think top 20-25% would be a more fair number. And I know English isn't easy for most students, but that's not the problem, it's the fact that English can be so subjective - one teacher can give you a 90 for something that another teacher might give you a 70 for, it's so subjective. These students weren't expecting 92 in it like in their other courses, even they knew that is pretty unrealistic. It's not really that the students are messing up, it's just that they can't meet the teacher's expectations because they are so high. It's different than having a hard math teacher where you could do a lot of preparation to see results, in english, no matter how hard you try, if your english teacher is a hard ass, it's going to be hard to improve your mark, especiall because english is extremely subjective and after three years of having great writing styles that matched with their previous english teachers, they have to tailor their style to a new type of teacher and they don't know how to meet the teacher's expectations even when the teacher gives them feedback. To be quite honest, I think the teacher just does that to have her reputation as the "hard English teacher". And like I said, english is so subjective, one teacher may not focus on essay writing and critical thinking, maybe they focus on presentations and listening skills, while another may focus on literature, it's that one course where your teacher has a MAJOR impact on your mark, and it must be frustrating to try so hard and not achieve what you desired. Applying to:
McMaster University - Life Science (accepted) York University - Biomedical Sciences (accepted) Waterloo University - Life Science (accepted) University of Toronto St. George - Life Science (accepted) University of Toronto Scarborough - Neuroscience Coop (accepted)
"Absolutely no regrets, only choices, because at the end of the day, I can sit here and say I've made my own." - Daniele Donato (Big Brother 13)
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Rank: Student Council  Joined: 12/25/2010 Posts: 365
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Xizeta wrote:The teacher is responsible…?
Are you sure?
There is part of me that becomes skeptical when a teacher is made a villain. A teacher should be hard. The course should be a challenge. Otherwise the teacher is not doing any service to their students. It could be that there are other students more deserving of a seat than you. It could be that you did not put enough time and labour into English. Teachers are anything but impartial – your appearance could have affected your grade.
I do not know. But that is life.
Communication is the bridge between people. English is going to be one of the greatest tools in the toolbox. Your command of English is part of your overall presentation – and people judge you on your presentation. I know people with exceptional grades in mathematics and science. They are intelligent and they will do fine. But there are not divergent thinkers.
These people might be smart – but there is room for improvement. The institution you get your degree from is not going to define you.
I guess you've never had a bad teacher - good on you. I don't think the students are trying to make the teacher a villain - be hard all you want, they're not telling her to give bonus assignments like the other english teachers did, it's just that they can't tailor their writing to meet her expectations when their writing style would suffice with their previous english teachers. And it's so subjective, and the teacher doesn't even tell you what she defines as a level 4, no sample writing nothing, she even says she doesn't give 80s often. Applying to:
McMaster University - Life Science (accepted) York University - Biomedical Sciences (accepted) Waterloo University - Life Science (accepted) University of Toronto St. George - Life Science (accepted) University of Toronto Scarborough - Neuroscience Coop (accepted)
"Absolutely no regrets, only choices, because at the end of the day, I can sit here and say I've made my own." - Daniele Donato (Big Brother 13)
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Rank: Frosh
Joined: 11/1/2011 Posts: 14
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I don't think English is as subjective as people make it out to be. Of course the mark involves the teacher's opinion, but they have a rubric and set of guidelines for the course, too. Teachers in nearly every subject will use their best judgment to evaluate, and some are harsher than others.
It's not as though everyone in the class is capable of writing at the expected level or higher and the teacher just picks and chooses their favourites. Some teachers will look past certain faults, the same way some teachers weigh in-class assignments higher than take-home ones. Every subject can be subjective in how it's graded, but there are certain requirements for English that I'll venture most English teachers have in common.
I guess the real question is, why do the program's requirements focus on something which apparently isn't relevant to the program? People will probably argue that a good grasp of chemistry is more paramount to success in biomed than being capable of explaining your thoughts the way English requires, but obviously, universities don't agree if one won't cancel out the other.
edit: i said 'tantamount' when i meant 'paramount' but both kinda worked, oops anyway
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Rank: Frosh
Joined: 2/8/2012 Posts: 14
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It is COMPLETELY unfair!!! I know exactly what you mean because I have gotten a 95+ in English throughout high school and I work extremely hard and yet my teacher gives me low 80s on every assignment- English is FAR too subjective, and it should not be a mandatory mark that universities count in my opinion.
Here's my advice to your friend: my guidance counselor told me that you can speak with someone at your school (ie. guidance counselor, VP, etc.) and ask to get another teacher to also mark your essay. If the teacher gives a different mark, they will either take that mark and look into your other grades or find the average of the two. [Only use this option in extreme cases because your teacher will probably not like you much for doing this]
Good luck! I feel for you!
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Rank: Student Council  Joined: 12/25/2010 Posts: 365
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ariadne89 wrote:brady23 wrote:ariadne89 wrote:Is it unfair when some teachers or some schools mark harder than other teachers and other schools? Yes, of course. You know what though? To use one of the most cliche overused phrases ever, life ain't fair. This kind of thing happens in high school, and it will continue to happen in university, in the workplace and throughout adult life. So you just gotta suck it up. Guarantee when you get to university you'll find that sometimes one TA grades way harder than other TAs in the same course or another section of the same course has a way higher average. You've started three separate threads to gripe about teachers. I don't mean to harsh, but I think you need to hear this: grow up, let it go and move on. Your attitude of griping about every perceived unfairness will not serve you well in university. Professors will continue to sometimes grade unfairly or have make-up policies for tests that don't seem compassionate, but you have to just suck it up and deal with it.
The hypothetical scenario you've set up of someone not getting into university because of one grade is a strawman. It's the same thing as kids in university who are already on academic probation because of a entire series of mediocre/low marks... yet when they get a D in a class they go whine to the professor that the "D" in that particular class is the reason they're getting kicked out of school. The truth is though, it's never just one grade. Same thing goes for this scenario. If the student truly has mid 90s in every other class, and a 78 or 80 in English, it's extremely unlikely that they wouldn't get into the program of their choice. Now if they have say 2 90s and then a collection of unremarkable 70s and 80s, then it's possible they wouldn't get in but the one grade in English wouldn't really be to blame. Okay, well it's not even close to the situation you described. Health Science requires a 90% average and the student doesn't have 80s in all their other courses, they have over 90 in all of them, so you trying to say that it's not just English is false. These students have marks of about 92 in all their other courses except English (78%), that makes their average 89.7% - that's not enough for Health Science. But you're right, life is unfair, but this isn't the difference between an 87% and an 88% average or a 0.1 difference in your GPA, this is the reason someone may not even be considered for their dream program because of one mark (that is not even that low - 78 is a great english mark) even though these people who've worked so hard to achieve their dream of admission to Health Science by putting hours and hours of effort to get 90+ in all their courses, volunteering, writing essay after essay for their supplementary, only to not even be considered because their English mark is 78 instead of an 80. I think if ANY of us were in their position, I don't think we would just brush it off, saying life is unfair. The point isn't the exact number of their grades, the point is that you can't possibly argue that it's just one grade since all grades are weighted equally in the top 6. Firstly, I highly doubt at a program would automatically reject someone with an 89.7% without at least looking at their application.. 90% may be the recommended average but it's not an absolute. Additionally, like someone mentioned above, if your friends truly have averages of 89.7% then perhaps they should find a way to recoup that 0.3% difference by raising one of their 92s to a 93.. that would be the adult way to problem-solve and figure out the situation rather than blaming it entirely on one grade. Honestly, everyone in this thread was just trying to offer you some honest perspective but now you are getting even more defensive and acting as though people in this thread are not being compassionate or fair.. you seem to be one of those people that perceive unfairness against you everywhere you go. It's up to you whether you want to listen or not, but we are trying to tell you that such an attitude will not serve you well in adult life. No one is denying the fact that some teachers mark unfairly or far too hard which results in disparities between schools and classes, so I don't know why you keep trying to prove your point about how hard your teacher is. We believe you that your teacher is hard. What we are trying to tell you is that the adult way to go about solving such a situation is to keep a positive attitude and be proactive about trying to find your own ways to solve the situation rather than bitching about unfair teachers. If I were in this position, and indeed I have been several times at university, I actually would just do my best to move on and brush it off and if I was moping I wouldn't be offended if my friends reminded me that life's not fair. There will be times at work when someone else gets a raise and you don't, times when the professor picks another student to be their research assistant, times when you won't get that shcolarship because your grades are just a percentage too low (because you got an 82 rather than an 84 in one class) and times when the grading won't be fair. You can't fight every battle. I know this will sound trite, but there are Canadians in our own country who are hungry, and don't even access to clean water, basic health care or warm shelters. There are people in other countries who are still stoned for being gay. Personally, these are the unfair things that I would rather save my energy up to fight over, not tough grading in one high school class. I know when you're in high school it's hard to have perspective and everything feels like life and death, but take it from people who are older - all of this high school drama over grades and tough teachers will seem so, so incredibly insignificant and silly just a few years from now. Yeah that would be such a great solution if the teachers were actually willing to bump marks that are that high - most teachers have a policy that if you want to be bumped to a mark 90%+ you have to get there on your own because 90% are exceptional students. And they can't retake it until the summer so it's not that easy to make up that 0.3% difference. And I know you are trying to offer some honest perspective and instead of just kissing the floor you walk on and saying I agree with you 100%, I'm offering my point of view, even if you think I'm immature or I need to grow up. I just have some empathy for these people just like some other people on this thread mentioned, and I don't think that means that I have an attitude and I'm not losing sleep over this. I don't even know why you said I have an attitude when all I did was disagree with you, not everyone has to kiss the floor you walk on, and I did listen to your opinion, there's a difference between listening and agreeing. You are entitled to your opinion, I took that in, and responded with my opinion. And quite a few of the other posters also have my opinion, I don't think that means we all have an attitude which will not serve us well in adult life. I know there will be TAs that mark harshly, I know going to McMaster might mean that I have to work harder for a higher GPA, etc. I'm not complaing about the half a mark I should've gotten on a math test, or that these students don't get bonus assignments like we do, or that my teacher only gave me 7 volunteer hours instead of 10, I know those things are minor and don't matter - but I do think there's a line between those examples I mentioned and this. And yes, there are those events going on worldwide, if someone treated you unfairly at work and took advantage of you, would you just say "All this is going on in the world, I'm not going to do anything about it because my situation is so insignificant compared to that." PS Thanks for your opinion, and contrary to what you think, I have listened to it, I just wanted to offer my point of view, and we can agree to disagree. I just don't think that just because I have a little empathy for these students doesn't mean I have an attitude that will not serve me well in the future, I'm sure a bunch of posters on this forum can sympathize with these students and I'm not the only one, and sympathy is not a bad thing. Applying to:
McMaster University - Life Science (accepted) York University - Biomedical Sciences (accepted) Waterloo University - Life Science (accepted) University of Toronto St. George - Life Science (accepted) University of Toronto Scarborough - Neuroscience Coop (accepted)
"Absolutely no regrets, only choices, because at the end of the day, I can sit here and say I've made my own." - Daniele Donato (Big Brother 13)
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Rank: Senior Student  Joined: 12/1/2011 Posts: 58
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There's no need to be so hyperbolic.. I never asked you to kiss the floor that I walk on. Good luck with everything. I'm out of this thread, because honestly, yes, I do find you immature with a very nasty attitude and a huge chip on your shoulder. You pretty much come across as a major pain in the ass in every thread you've started. Are you a broke student? I've earned over $500 in amazon giftcards from Swagbucks since August, 2011. I haven't had to pay for a single textbook out of pocket since joining, and I have money left over for coffee! Interested? Sign up using my link: http://www.swagbucks.com/refer/alicial89
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Rank: Student Council  Joined: 12/25/2010 Posts: 365
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ariadne89 wrote:There's no need to be so hyperbolic.. I never asked you to kiss the floor that I walk on. Good luck with everything. I'm out of this thread, because honestly, yes, I do find you immature with a very nasty attitude and a huge chip on your shoulder. You pretty much come across as a major pain in the ass in every thread you've started. Um yeah I think you did, and I never said you weren't being compassionate or fair, I said I just had some empathy towards these students, and you're right life can be unfair, but if that was so easy to say why do we need therapists who listen to our problems - I don't think a therapist's answer to every client would be "LIFE IS UNFAIR. GET OVER IT." (even though that is the easy answer). They would probably analyze the situation and then make their judgement - just like I have. I don't think this is your daily life situation where something doesn't go your way, this is something bigger than that, and that's why I have empathy for these people, not because their English mark ruins their streak of 80s, it's much bigger than that. And if I was really being immature, I don't think I would have other users agreeing with my opinion or at least seeing where I'm coming from, you're the only one that said I had an attitude problem. I can agree to disagree but obviously you can't with your "It's up to you whether you listen or not, but we are trying to tell you that such an attitude will not serve you well in adult life" because obviously, your opinion is only the right one. Applying to:
McMaster University - Life Science (accepted) York University - Biomedical Sciences (accepted) Waterloo University - Life Science (accepted) University of Toronto St. George - Life Science (accepted) University of Toronto Scarborough - Neuroscience Coop (accepted)
"Absolutely no regrets, only choices, because at the end of the day, I can sit here and say I've made my own." - Daniele Donato (Big Brother 13)
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Rank: Student Body Vice-President
Joined: 1/4/2011 Posts: 782
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Life's not fair, get over it. People get the short end of the stick all the time, that's what the world is like. Waterloo Mechanical Engineering '17 Applied: McGill :) :( :( :( Western :) Ivey :( U of T :) :) Waterloo :) :) :)
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Rank: Senior Student  Joined: 6/16/2011 Posts: 59
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^ Indeed. Internal locus of control > external locus of control. McGill University - Class of 2016
BA | Major: Political Science - Minor: French Language Studies
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Rank: Frosh
Joined: 5/4/2012 Posts: 31
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I'll quickly offer my honest reply. If this person has a 78% in an English class in which it has been proven by other students to achieve a higher mark, this student is not a strong English student. And there is nothing wrong with that. But I know many people who have been accepted into Health Sciences at McMaster, and they are all brilliant English students/writers. The students who have been rejected are not as strong in writing and it shows in their supplementary application. It's upper year Health Science students who read the applications, and they are brilliant writers themselves and expect the same standard. It's a circle. If you are not a top dollar writer, don't expect to be accepted anyway. That's my honest opinion. Sorry if I pissed someone off but get off your high horse and invest your dreams into something else. If you truly thing you will be successful there, invest that optimism and energy into whatever program you end up in. The University of Western Ontario, Class of 2016Offered Admission to:
The University of Western Ontario - Biological and Medical Sciences May 11, 2012 McMaster University - Life Sciences February 17, 2012 Queen's University - Science (Honours) February 24, 2012
Waiting to Receive Admission to: none! 3/3
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Rank: Student Body Vice-President  Joined: 12/23/2010 Posts: 966
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Never blame the teachers. You really can't do anything about it in high school...Work hard and that's all really you can do. At least in university, you can pick your profs so it's all good. The University of Western Ontario '15 Political Science
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