|
|
Rank: Frosh  Joined: 11/28/2010 Posts: 8
|
Although I am not yet in law school, I have already started thinking of where i want to go (yeah i'm a keener). However I am at a crossroads, because I have always wanted to go to Harvard Law School but some people are saying that the education level is better in Canada than in the US.
What are your thoughts?
|
|
|
Rank: Student Body Vice-President  Joined: 12/23/2010 Posts: 966
|
If you get into Harvard Law, you might as well go there. :) Reputation actually might play a bigger role if you want to work internationally. The University of Western Ontario '15 Political Science
|
|
|
|
Rank: Student Body President
Joined: 3/3/2010
Posts: 9,235
|
Whoever said that just never got in Harvard Law. Or avoided rejection by not even applying. **Shields**
Accepted:
University of Toronto: Social Sciences + Vic One (Pearson Stream)
Carleton University: Honours Science
University of British Columbia: Arts
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 12/12/2010
Posts: 58
|
academicchica wrote:some people are saying that the education level is better in Canada than in the US.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHA Sure. Some of the best universities in Canada like UofT and McGill are the better than some state universities in the US, but UofT/McGill can't even touch Harvard in terms of the quality of education. I'm sure that both universities have excellent professors and attract excellent students, but really. It's Harvard.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 1/25/2011
Posts: 122
|
LoL
Go to Harvard. Because, even if the education here is better, and if the employers don't care, you still get to say, "I went to Harvard".
|
|
|
|
Rank: Frosh
Joined: 2/13/2011
Posts: 6
|
DoctorLawyerDentist wrote:LoL
Go to Harvard. Because, even if the education here is better, and if the employers don't care, you still get to say, "I went to Harvard". so true AFM PA 2014
|
|
|
Rank: Valedictorian  Joined: 12/13/2010 Posts: 681
|
Harvard law will get you connections. And that's one of the most important things to get a job. You get the gist of what i'm saying. Perpetually hungry.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Frosh
Joined: 2/18/2011
Posts: 24
|
Nyx wrote:Harvard law will get you connections. And that's one of the most important things to get a job. You get the gist of what i'm saying. Harvard Law doesn't get you "connections". I think you are confusing Harvard Law with Harvard Business School. The former is a testing grind while the latter is all about schmoozing and socializing once one has matriculated into the program. The answer to OP's question lies in her career and living aspirations. Going to Harvard Law will disquality her (at least immediately) from practicing law in Canada, which essentially means living and working in Canada will be impossible if one is not keen on sitting a few years of extra testing after law school graduation. And with regards to the spurious "Harvard Law has better education" line that gets thrown around here, this is quite obviously wrong. Graduate professors do not spend extra time with you at Harvard and many do not base their examinations on lecture period, but rather textbook material. Harvard is great for reputation and job opportunities, but the quality of education one receives at any school is more predicated on the efforts put forth by the person in question rather than any structure put in place by a learning institution. Harvard, even if you consider the support they provide, does not in any way offer "a better quality education" than UofT or Osgoode. I It is more difficult to get a better grade, but that has less to do with teaching quality than the brutal curve Harvard demands all professors adhere.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Student Body Vice-President
Joined: 1/4/2011
Posts: 782
|
Just out of curiosity...is it easier for someone to graduate from a Canadian law school and practice in the states, or easier for someone to graduate from an American law school and practice in Canada? Kinda relates to the topic I guess LOL Waterloo Mechanical Engineering '17
Applied:
McGill :) :( :( :(
Western :)
Ivey :(
U of T :) :)
Waterloo :) :) :)
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 3/31/2011
Posts: 59
|
academicchica wrote:Although I am not yet in law school, I have already started thinking of where i want to go (yeah i'm a keener). However I am at a crossroads, because I have always wanted to go to Harvard Law School but some people are saying that the education level is better in Canada than in the US.
What are your thoughts? This is stupid. Grad schools in America have infinitely better professors than the ones in Canada ESPECIALLY since we're talking about the top 20 schools in America (Arguably in the world as well). Just compare Berkley's all star physics faculty to UofT's or McGill's or Waterloo's. There is just 0 comparison. Alan Dershowitz is just one of the many celebrity academics that teaches at Harvard...whoever told you that silly piece of information is a moron. With that said however, it is worth noting that McGill, Osgoode and UofT are similar to a Cornell or a Duke degree in law in regards to prestige but there's 0 comparison when it comes to the American Elite (Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Penn, Berk). KeileTheFriendlyMuuMuu wrote:Nyx wrote:Harvard law will get you connections. And that's one of the most important things to get a job. You get the gist of what i'm saying. Harvard Law doesn't get you "connections". I think you are confusing Harvard Law with Harvard Business School. The former is a testing grind while the latter is all about schmoozing and socializing once one has matriculated into the program. The answer to OP's question lies in her career and living aspirations. Going to Harvard Law will disquality her (at least immediately) from practicing law in Canada, which essentially means living and working in Canada will be impossible if one is not keen on sitting a few years of extra testing after law school graduation. And with regards to the spurious "Harvard Law has better education" line that gets thrown around here, this is quite obviously wrong. Graduate professors do not spend extra time with you at Harvard and many do not base their examinations on lecture period, but rather textbook material. Harvard is great for reputation and job opportunities, but the quality of education one receives at any school is more predicated on the efforts put forth by the person in question rather than any structure put in place by a learning institution. Harvard, even if you consider the support they provide, does not in any way offer "a better quality education" than UofT or Osgoode. I
It is more difficult to get a better grade, but that has less to do with teaching quality than the brutal curve Harvard demands all professors adhere. 1. False. Unless you're rich/resourceful enough to start a law firm by yourself, it does help to have "connections" like in ANY career. With Harvard's strong alumni network, this would be very useful. 2. Wrong once again. The LSUC decides the length and the type of exams you will need to pass. It is all dependant on a case by case. In most extreme cases it is just an addition year of school (hardly likely if you're going to Harvard) but in most cases it is just a few months of articling and a few exams of which would be a breeze for a new graduate. 3. Wrong. The faculty does spend time with you and their faculty is most certainly stronger than the ones at Osgoode and UofT. 4. Harvard's curve is by no means "harder" than any top 20 law school in the world. Their 37% honors is on pace with most schools in the States even. However, with that said, I do find it silly for someone to plan their future THAT far ahead. For all you know, you could struggle through undergraduate studies. Just saying. : /
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 1/25/2011
Posts: 122
|
Please.
If anyone got accepted to Harvard, they would obviously choose to go to Harvard. The real question is, is it worth the effort to get in? (No, it isn't)
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 3/31/2011
Posts: 59
|
iliketurtles wrote:Just out of curiosity...is it easier for someone to graduate from a Canadian law school and practice in the states, or easier for someone to graduate from an American law school and practice in Canada? Kinda relates to the topic I guess LOL About the same. It depends state to state or province to province. If you're planning to practice in NY then it's quite easy but if you plan on practicing in California you may need an addition year of legal studies. It all depends case to case. Job experience, length of articling, type of bar and the institution that you received your degree all factor into their decisions to allow you to practice law or not for both countries.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 3/31/2011
Posts: 59
|
DoctorLawyerDentist wrote:Please.
If anyone got accepted to Harvard, they would obviously choose to go to Harvard. The real question is, is it worth the effort to get in? (No, it isn't) I disagree. It depends on your aspirations and how you value your academic career. It's purely subjective.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 12/10/2010
Posts: 108
|
The question should be can you afford to go to harvard or a school in the states. Education costs a lot more in the US than it does in Canada and you would have a worse chance of getting scholarships, so if you want to go there you should check out how much it will cost you.
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student  Joined: 12/20/2010 Posts: 107
|
I read the first half of the question in the topic title and already knew the answer. McGill University Class of 2015 - Arts (Economics & Political Science)
Accepted to: Queen's Commerce, McGill Desautels, Western International Relations + Ivey AEO, Schulich iBBA, UOttawa Joint Honours Political Science & Economics, McMaster Business
|
|
|
|
Rank: Frosh
Joined: 2/18/2011
Posts: 24
|
Quote:What are your thoughts?
This is stupid.
Grad schools in America have infinitely better professors than the ones in Canada ESPECIALLY since we're talking about the top 20 schools in America (Arguably in the world as well).
Just compare Berkley's all star physics faculty to UofT's or McGill's or Waterloo's. There is just 0 comparison.
Alan Dershowitz is just one of the many celebrity academics that teaches at Harvard...whoever told you that silly piece of information is a moron.
With that said however, it is worth noting that McGill, Osgoode and UofT are similar to a Cornell or a Duke degree in law in regards to prestige but there's 0 comparison when it comes to the American Elite (Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Penn, Berk). Higher quality academic faculty with regards to publication and/or prestige does not necessarily translate into a better learning experience for students. Some, if not most, prestigious faculty are hired precisely because of their prestige they confer upon the schools in which they are (very gainfully) employed, and not because of any exceptional teaching or mediation ability. Dershowitz in particular is an excellent example of this. He is regarded as an iconic trial lawyer with a fiery temper that has won renown for, among other things, his role in controversial cases like the OJ Simpson case. But, aside from writing a few law articles, Dershowitz doesn't teach anything beyond basic law classes. He has never won any awards for these or other classes. This is because Dershowitz doesn't have much interest in teaching. Quote:
1. False. Unless you're rich/resourceful enough to start a law firm by yourself, it does help to have "connections" like in ANY career. With Harvard's strong alumni network, this would be very useful.
Unlike you, I know people that are currently attending and have previously attended law schools and Harvard in particular has no such thing. Harvard Law goes through 1.6k students every year and most simply go on to their business after school. Law firms recruit through OCI interviews, and partners don't pick up their phones unless it involves a fee. In esence, you have no idea what you're talking about. Quote:
2. Wrong once again. The LSUC decides the length and the type of exams you will need to pass. It is all dependant on a case by case. In most extreme cases it is just an addition year of school (hardly likely if you're going to Harvard) but in most cases it is just a few months of articling and a few exams of which would be a breeze for a new graduate.
I am right and you are demonstratively wrong: "Third, apply to the Committee for assessment of your qualifications. As a U.S. trained lawyer they will not consider your education to be equivalent to a Canadian legal education and will require you to probably take 8 challenge exams in particular subject areas for which you can study on your own, or enroll in a Canadian law school as a special student (that means you only get in if there is space and will have to pay market rates for your courses. Also, if you take the law school approach you will be in school for another 2 years). You will be given a time frame to complete this of about 3 years.Four, if you pass the challenge exams in the subjects then you are deemed to have an education equivalent to a Canadian law school education. Then you will have to try to secure an articling position [b](12 month period of traineeship with a law firm or lawyer), enroll in the bar course and pass the bar exam. "http://www.llm-guide.com/board/21014
Most posts on law school forums echo this sentimentQuote:3. Wrong. The faculty does spend time with you and their faculty is most certainly stronger than the ones at Osgoode and UofT. Wrong. Do you have any proof the faculty spends time with you? No, you don't. Harvard profs never spend time with students unless you are a star academic from the get-go. Profs lecture their students, ask random people Socratic questions and then give really hard exams. Don't believe it? Check actual law school forums. Quote:4. Harvard's curve is by no means "harder" than any top 20 law school in the world. Their 37% honors is on pace with most schools in the States even. The curve is harder because Harvard has higher quality students than most schools. This point is pretty non-debatable as it has been said time and time again on law school forums. Quote:
However, with that said, I do find it silly for someone to plan their future THAT far ahead. For all you know, you could struggle through undergraduate studies. Just saying. : /
Irrelevant babble. I've demonstratively proven here that at least one of your points is nonsense. L2factcheck.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 3/31/2011
Posts: 59
|
Quote:Higher quality academic faculty with regards to publication and/or prestige does not necessarily translate into a better learning experience for students.
Some, if not most, prestigious faculty are hired precisely because of their prestige they confer upon the schools in which they are (very gainfully) employed, and not because of any exceptional teaching or mediation ability. Dershowitz in particular is an excellent example of this. He is regarded as an iconic trial lawyer with a fiery temper that has won renown for, among other things, his role in controversial cases like the OJ Simpson case.
But, aside from writing a few law articles, Dershowitz doesn't teach anything beyond basic law classes. He has never won any awards for these or other classes. This is because Dershowitz doesn't have much interest in teaching. These are industry leading academics we're talking about here. The same academics that would be capable of earning more money had they remained in a non-academic field. I would agree with you if this was a discussion about science or medicine where the professors are only at the school to take advantage of their equipment/staff/resources/research grants etc but this is law that we're talking about. These teachers are here, simply to teach. In addition, the same could be said about the top schools in Ontario. Not everyone can teach that's for sure. Your argument is only true if only if you accept the premise that Osgoode/UofT has better teachers than Harvard. The learning process is subjective. Everyone has a different way of learning so you will receive a broad range of answers on that one.For all you know, you might just even prefer the teachers at Harvard over UofT. Thus this shouldn't be a quality to consider when choosing schools. However with that said, when you break down the idea of learning to its very core it's simply defined as an "exchange of ideas". Prestigious faculty are hired simply because of their ideas, ideas of which "normal" faculty could never provide for their students. By having a professor that's also an industry leading expert...well that's simply an advantage whether or not you appreciate his/her teaching style or not. Dershowitz is not a good example for this at all. Dershowitz considers himself a great teacher (This is part of his arrogance of course but it does show he cares. Contrary to what you claimed. ) and also had one of the highest student approval ratings at Harvard Law. Quote:Before I became a strong advocate for Israel I had the highest rating for a teacher by students at Harvard law school. I’m a very good teacher. People stand on line for my seminars. Since I started publicly supporting Israel, my student evaluation scores have gone down dramatically. Ninety per cent of students still give me the highest rating of five, but the 10 per cent that hate me because of my advocacy of Israel give me zero, so that brings down the average. If I was seeking tenure it would be devastating for my career. Universities have told me that they would love to give me an honorary doctorate but that the student protests would be too significant http://www.thejc.com/lif...terview-alan-dershowitz
If you're skeptical of his claims, there are numerous comments posted on ratemyprofessor that verify this (especially if you look at the earlier comments versus the newer ones. I have a feeling they have more to do with his views on Israel rather than criticism of his teaching.) http://www.ratemyprofess...p?tid=230586&page=5
Quote:Unlike you, I know people that are currently attending and have previously attended law schools and Harvard in particular has no such thing. Harvard Law goes through 1.6k students every year and most simply go on to their business after school. Law firms recruit through OCI interviews, and partners don't pick up their phones unless it involves a fee. In esence, you have no idea what you're talking about. I guess they didn't go to Harvard then. Quote:A Worldwide Network
As a Harvard Law graduate, you are part of a worldwide association of alumni who work and succeed in nearly every field of human endeavor. The HLS online alumni community allows you to connect with fellow graduates and take advantage of your membership in this incredible network of men and women. http://www.law.harvard.e...i/networking/index.html
http://www.law.harvard.e...i/hlsconnect/index.html
There is clearly one of the aspects, Harvard prides as it is highlighted several times throughout their website. Quote:I am right and you are demonstratively wrong: "Third, apply to the Committee for assessment of your qualifications. As a U.S. trained lawyer they will not consider your education to be equivalent to a Canadian legal education and will require you to probably take 8 challenge exams in particular subject areas for which you can study on your own, or enroll in a Canadian law school as a special student (that means you only get in if there is space and will have to pay market rates for your courses. Also, if you take the law school approach you will be in school for another 2 years). You will be given a time frame to complete this of about 3 years.Four, if you pass the challenge exams in the subjects then you are deemed to have an education equivalent to a Canadian law school education. Then you will have to try to secure an articling position [b](12 month period of traineeship with a law firm or lawyer), enroll in the bar course and pass the bar exam. "http://www.llm-guide.com/board/21014
Most posts on law school forums echo this sentiment I'm sorry I thought you were in the "know". I'll expand. Harvard allows you to have a joint degree with NYU, a school that offers mandatory courses needed by the NCA. As well NYU offers joint degree programs with Osgoode. Thus, the process is not as lengthy as you've described. Quote:Wrong. Do you have any proof the faculty spends time with you? No, you don't. Harvard profs never spend time with students unless you are a star academic from the get-go. Profs lecture their students, ask random people Socratic questions and then give really hard exams. Don't believe it? Check actual law school forums. It depends the teacher so I'll admit it was quite the stretch but it's not as impossible as you've described it to be. Quote:I am always amazed by just how approachable the faculty is here. We had office hours in college but I never used them and didn’t really see professors around any of the dining areas. At HLS I see my professors around all the time. They stop and ask how I am doing and how I like my classes. Many professors host weekly lunches for groups of their students to get together and chat with them. It’s always nice to get to know people better over free food. One of my professors even sponsored a trip to the movies to see Crank 2. http://blogs.law.harvard...pproachable-professors/
Maybe it's just a marketing tactic but then again Harvard doesn't really need to market their school as their name already sells itself. Not happy about that example? How about Gregory Mankiw, a professor at Harvard, who created a blog in order to connect with his new students and to reconnect with his old ones. Quote:I am a professor of economics at Harvard University, where I teach introductory economics (ec 10) among other courses. I use this blog to keep in touch with my current and former students. Teachers and students at other schools, as well as others interested in economic issues, are welcome to use this resource. http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/
Again as I've explained before, many teachers are at Harvard because they want to teach and interact with some of the brightest people in the world. They don't have to be here. With their resumes they could be earning more money or working at much more prestigious organizations. Quote:The curve is harder because Harvard has higher quality students than most schools. This point is pretty non-debatable as it has been said time and time again on law school forums. As opposed to say...Yale? Stanford? Columbia? UofT? Osgoode? Schools of which require similar academic requirements and hold lower enrolment rates (smaller classes=only the best of the best get in). Oh and Harvard also has one of the highest graduation rates in America so ... I don't see how it is THAT much more competitive than the aforementioned schools. http://grad-schools.usne...t_combined/sortdir+desc
Quote:Irrelevant babble. I've demonstratively proven here that at least one of your points is nonsense. L2factcheck.
It might be irrelevant to you but it might be relevant to the OP when it's very common for undergraduate students to change their minds or academic paths. This might be a better question to ask, if and when the OP gets into Harvard. I would love to join in with the insults but that isn't my cup of my tea. Nor do I enjoy bragging/lying about friends being at Ivies ( not that I buy into appeal to authority arguments) but as a sign of good faith I'll trust you.
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student  Joined: 12/22/2010 Posts: 80
|
Harvard Law student = Yale Law reject.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 3/31/2011
Posts: 59
|
uncharted1111 wrote:Harvard Law student = Yale Law reject. That's funny because Yale Law has constantly been rated higher than Harvard and has a lower acceptance rate. Not that it matters though.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Senior Student
Joined: 3/31/2011
Posts: 59
|
lashes wrote:Zarathustra wrote:uncharted1111 wrote:Harvard Law student = Yale Law reject. That's funny because Yale Law has constantly been rated higher than Harvard and has a lower acceptance rate. Not that it matters though. Ever thought about changing your name to "Captain Obvious"? thxkbai And here is a picture of a cat ---->  
|
|
|